The Sincerest Form of Imitation (not a story)

[ProchazkaJBG]

I've kept things civil. Thrown no mud, called no names, unless you count referring to A.I. content as what a teeming mass of algorithms shits out after you put in your prompt.

This whole thing started because someone did a Google Gemini recreation of one of my works, and the point I was trying to make in the original post was that the scene was taken out of context - intended for horror, but remade mostly for titillation. Somehow or other I've had to since clarify my stance on A.I. content in general (long in a short: I don't think it's art), and have been referred to as "way too emotional" over this issue, among other things.

I don't know what else I can even contribute to this that'll mean anything, so I'll just leave it at this. I don't want A.I. trained on my content, I don't want A.I. "recreations" of my content and I don't want to see this forum or the Wiki flooded by the regurgitated offal that a bunch of algorithms churned out based on a bunch of prompts that probably included the phrase "stable diffusion" somewhere in them. The people - the HUMAN BEINGS - who write, and compose, and draw, and paint and use 3D modeling programs to create for this forum and the wiki are, truly, artists. Anyone, and I mean anyone, can learn to use the tools that those people use, and with experience and practice become an artist of their own merit.

Adding A.I.-created content to the forum isn't adding art, it's opening the floodgates of a sewage drain to drown us all in shit. Content made by actual talented HUMAN BEINGS will be lost to a slurry of slop, A.I. hallucinations and garbage "in the style of" so many others.

You want to call me a gatekeeper? I'll wear the badge with pride, because you're damn right I'm a gatekeeper. You want to call me overly emotional? Maybe it's because I prefer human talent as opposed to a bunch of soulless algorithms. You want to call me a hypocrite? Go look up the definition of the word and get back to me.

Art is made by PEOPLE, using TALENT, IMAGINATION and CREATIVITY. Algorithms lack all three of those attributes, and therefore algorithms are not, will not and will never be artists. They're content engines, cranking out mass-produced shit day-in, day -out. And that's before we get to the legal and ethical debates.

Anyway. I support art made by HUMAN ARTISTS, not some rando entering a prompt. Fembot Central needs to celebrate and promote its HUMAN ARTISTS, not the ocean of swill churned out by LLMs and other such soulless assembly lines.

None of my posts were directed at your request to not have your works used without permission. That is a completely rational demand and fully within your rights as the creator

[AmosBurton7]

Hit me up if they haven't banned you yet - [email protected]

I tried to PM you but it says you can't get PM's. A few of us are looking into creating a new site...

[fection]

I definitely also don't want stories I've written or animated (or scenes within them) re-interpreted by other people or algorithms - especially without permission.

But I AM definitely interested in having new content that speaks to my very specific flavour of ASFR.
For me, also, it doesn't have to be about art - it's more about comedy. So if video can be more easily produced that implements a script that includes humour, irony and a non-self-aware fembot malfunctioning, the only reservation I have is: which other artists is the algorithm stealing from?

Sorry if this seems a bit muddled, but it seemed like the distinction between Fembot Central artists retaining control of their content was being slightly conflated with the issue of poor-quality AI 'slop'. Surely the moral argument is separate from the quality of the output.

If the prompts are specific enough and can tick all my (admittedly very specific) boxes the only remaining issue I can see, for NEW content, is the broader 'data trawling' of LLMs generally.

So I'm in two minds, but think it's a shame the ease with which new, quality content could be created is not being embraced.

Is there a thread here where the rationale is explained? I genuinely probably just missed it.

[NatalieBayer]

I'm not sure there is one singular post that explains absolutely everything, and I am hesitant to put one together simply because I know that would spark a torrent of folks, both for and agaisnt the ruling, to start arguments. IF we could keep things civil that would be one thing, but that has, unfortunately, proven to be a struggle on the forums (and the greater internet as a whole.)

But, for the sake of answering the question, here's some cliff notes.

* Flooding: This is probably the greatest worry in the short term. AI content is quick and easy to make and we worry that there would be a lot of it posted in rapid succession, making it difficult to police the content.

* Policing: People have and likely still would post content that appears to violate any number of rules. Underage content is a legitimate issue that we have run into. And yes, AI generated images arent real people, but that doesnt mean that it doesnt generate images that appear to have underage subjects. It's a slippery slope.

* Content regulation: In most countries, there arent any good laws regarding the regulation of AI content. Will there be in the future? Maybe, and if there is we dont have the time or manpower to hunt down every AI generated image or story and make sure it complies with whatever that legislation might be. Once that kind of regulation is in place, we will revisit the rules here.

* Ethics: There is a lot of debate on this one. Obviously artists and writers have had their content scraped without permission and compensation, which is already just kind of shitty, on top of that real human beings need to view and label that content in order for an LLM or image generator to know what to do with it. Those people are severely underpaid and over worked to the point that they are basically working in an image sorting sweatshop. Because of that, and a number of other fairly widespread reasons, we dont feel comfortable allowing unethically made content here.

What this ISN'T about:
* The admin team dont hate AI content. Most of us use it for personal reasons and projects.
* Gate keeping - We don't think that anyone who makes AI content "isnt a real artist". We just dont allow the content here.
* Personal vendettas and conspiracy: None of the admin team conspire to "take down" anyone who has expressed a pro-AI stance. Again, most of us are pretty Pro-AI as long as its used properly.

At the end of the day, we're not allowing AI content because of a lot of reasons. We are always up for reconsidering this stance, should something in the legal and societal arena change. But so far that hasn't happened. We tend to shut down AI centered debates pretty aggressively simply because they quickly devolve into tempers and insults. If they can remain civil, then we welcome the debate as there are good points and use cases to be made on both sides. We want to encourage the community to keep talking about this, because it isnt going away, and we know that. But for now, its something you can use personally, and post on other places, just not here.

thank you for coming to my TED talk.

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A thoughtful and considerate answer there from NathalieBayer. I appreciate that.

Given it has brought Fection out with a thoughtful reply I feel I must also. I am with Fection, and Xeren for that matter, but I wanted to say something different.
I am sad we cannot find a way to be more inclusive and dismayed at that exchanges between members of late.

ASFR has always been the broadest church that has provided a home for all the many varied ideas and methods we encompass. And by goodness those ideas and methods have evolved over the years. If any two of us have the exact same likes on either what or how our kinks are expressed I'd be amazed. Yet it has always been a group where (nearly) everything was accepted. Preferences were exercised by choice of what was consumed, not limited by what was shared.

For me, AI is about the rapid development of ideas and exploration of the imagination. I have been able to evolve my own interests exponential in the last six months which frankly I could never have done with my efforts at Photoshop. I'm inspired seeing the things other are doing, and excited when people do take it beyond to the next level. I've seen things I thought impossible and none of it has made my interest in other forms and formats any less.

Inevitably perhaps, however much I regret the day coming, maybe it is time that our focal point grow beyond a singular home at Fembot Central, but let us do what we can to not make it a schism that sets us against each other.
That this group should divide down this subject, of all subjects, is beyond me, and in a golden age as well.

The admins have made their policy clear, repeatedly, and it isn't going to change any time soon. However much I find it obtuse, I think has to be heard, respected respectfully, and we should collectively find another answer.

For those who want to explore AI content there are other forums. Those on Discord are my hangout. Maybe a new sisterbot forum is needed if it isn't there already, but whatever the specifics, why don't we just grow and link our ASFR network out positively.
Here for this, there for that, and love thy shared protocols. A space in the matrix for us all.

That's my bit said. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the AI.

[AmosBurton7]

A thoughtful and considerate answer there from NathalieBayer. I appreciate that.

Given it has brought Fection out with a thoughtful reply I feel I must also. I am with Fection, and Xeren for that matter, but I wanted to say something different.
I am sad we cannot find a way to be more inclusive and dismayed at that exchanges between members of late.

ASFR has always been the broadest church that has provided a home for all the many varied ideas and methods we encompass. And by goodness those ideas and methods have evolved over the years. If any two of us have the exact same likes on either what or how our kinks are expressed I'd be amazed. Yet it has always been a group where (nearly) everything was accepted. Preferences were exercised by choice of what was consumed, not limited by what was shared.

For me, AI is about the rapid development of ideas and exploration of the imagination. I have been able to evolve my own interests exponential in the last six months which frankly I could never have done with my efforts at Photoshop. I'm inspired seeing the things other are doing, and excited when people do take it beyond to the next level. I've seen things I thought impossible and none of it has made my interest in other forms and formats any less.

Inevitably perhaps, however much I regret the day coming, maybe it is time that our focal point grow beyond a singular home at Fembot Central, but let us do what we can to not make it a schism that sets us against each other.
That this group should divide down this subject, of all subjects, is beyond me, and in a golden age as well.

The admins have made their policy clear, repeatedly, and it isn't going to change any time soon. However much I find it obtuse, I think has to be heard, respected respectfully, and we should collectively find another answer.

For those who want to explore AI content there are other forums. Those on Discord are my hangout. Maybe a new sisterbot forum is needed if it isn't there already, but whatever the specifics, why don't we just grow and link our ASFR network out positively.
Here for this, there for that, and love thy shared protocols. A space in the matrix for us all.

That's my bit said. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the AI.

Xeran, a 25+ year contributor to this and other sites, isn't even allowed to post LINKS to his work here. Neither are MANY other long time members here who are finally getting into the creation side after years of seeing other peoples stuff featured here. Not only can these members of the community not post art, stories, or vids, but they can't even provide LINKS to existing other sites for those here who wouldn't mind some new and different takes on the genre. THAT is the definition of "Gatekeeping".

[AmosBurton7]

[andoroido]

If 10 years from now an actual fembot made art, would she be allowed to post it here?

Speculation is a fun part of our sci-fi fetish.

Possible answer: If fembots become real enough to be posting art, we won't care much what happens here anyway.

However, don't we all kind of hope that we would be among the first to be contacted to do the Beta testing of these fembots?

[Lithorien]

I removed the one story I wrote from the wiki once AI became a thing and it was apparent that people here were using AI and supportive of it scraping people's works for "training".

That the administrative staff here and on the wiki are disallowing it is the only reason that I, and many others, remain. We want to see works created by human beings, showing their skill and passion for their craft. We don't want to see a flood of "content" that is just generated from stolen works, made with a machine that is designed intentionally to shut down and displace humans.

The world is beautiful when people are allowed to create - AI takes that beauty and destroys it. And to see such hate directed towards people who want to preserve that beauty and protect it from the soulless, banal AI is heartbreaking.

Thank you to the staff standing against this AI plague. It is very genuinely appreciated.

[Extyr]

A few of us are looking into creating a new site...

Oh, I'd be interested too. This place has been on a steady downward trajectory since robotman left.

Seeing so many luddites talking points on what's essentially a technological fetish site is mind-boggling. It's all so ironic.

[NatalieBayer]

Can we please keep the name calling out of these discussions.

[DZiegler]

I'm very interested in exploring the creative space of AI-generated content (photos, videos, audio, writing, chat/RP, idea collaboration, etc.) to further explore our fembot "niche". I find the development and maturation of LLMs to be a personal fascination and there are likely aspects of the overall algorithmic design that will factor heavily into the AI systems that run a real-life fembot (I know technically there are "bots "that exist today...but I'm talking more about our "current" fictional vision of the quasi-indistinguishable-from-human-fembots becoming tangible...), which is also of great interest to me.

I am an LLM/AI "stan".

THAT BEING SAID, the site's policy, as established by the moderation team (who CARE about this community, this site, and making "niche" fembot material present online in a safe/respectful environtment) is NO AI-generated content, full stop.

We should respect that and move on.

While I don't want to splinter our small "niche" here on the internet, there are literally hundreds of other sites/forums/message-boards/chat-rooms that AI-generated content can be posted/shared/liked.

Nobody should be shamed for their usage of the tech, here or elsewhere (in my opinion). But, that's beside the point. The point is, the mods who run THIS site (again, who care about this community deeply) have established it as a 'No AI-generated Content Zone' and we need to leave with that and respect that.

Sincerely,
Long Time Listener, First Time Caller

[AmosBurton7]

I'm very interested in exploring the creative space of AI-generated content (photos, videos, audio, writing, chat/RP, idea collaboration, etc.) to further explore our fembot "niche". I find the development and maturation of LLMs to be a personal fascination and there are likely aspects of the overall algorithmic design that will factor heavily into the AI systems that run a real-life fembot (I know technically there are "bots "that exist today...but I'm talking more about our "current" fictional vision of the quasi-indistinguishable-from-human-fembots becoming tangible...), which is also of great interest to me.

I am an LLM/AI "stan".

THAT BEING SAID, the site's policy, as established by the moderation team (who CARE about this community, this site, and making "niche" fembot material present online in a safe/respectful environtment) is NO AI-generated content, full stop.

We should respect that and move on.

While I don't want to splinter our small "niche" here on the internet, there are literally hundreds of other sites/forums/message-boards/chat-rooms that AI-generated content can be posted/shared/liked.

Nobody should be shamed for their usage of the tech, here or elsewhere (in my opinion). But, that's beside the point. The point is, the mods who run THIS site (again, who care about this community deeply) have established it as a 'No AI-generated Content Zone' and we need to leave with that and respect that.

Sincerely,
Long Time Listener, First Time Caller

I agree with ALL of this 1000%. My only issue is people can't even post links to those other sites created that are presenting HIGH QUALITY, labor intensive works. When searching for the AI generated "content" sites, everyone here against AI is correct, the abundance of straight up prompt generated no-effort fever dream slop makes it nearly impossible to find the "GOOD" stuff in the sea of stuff generated in 5-10 second clips that are just flooding everywhere.

This site was in the past always about "Fembot Content", ie hot robot girls... and suddenly its become a forum concentrated more on the provenance of the images and how its created rather than the content itself. I get it, they don't like AI stuff. Cool. There is PLENTY of stuff on this board I find from unattractive to downright repugnant - but I don't criticize the artist, the artwork, or the media used to create it. I just find the things that interest me, as I have since around 1999 when all of this became a thing online instead of just hoarded VHS clips from old/bad movies and TV shows.

People would be more than happy to create a new place for this new type of FEMBOT content, but without the ability to even share links to other sites it makes it difficult as THIS BOARD is kind of the clearing house and unofficial center of the genre and interest.

[Baron]

What Duke said - all of it!!!

My content here goes all the way back to BEFORE the turn of the century, so I can say "I've seen it all." And, my work stretches across practically every "lane" of creativity, be it photo manips, stories, movie reviews, lively discussion, clips on the FTP, you name it. For decades, this place has thrived on the amazing cross-section of content put forth by the contributors. Hell, the sheer amount of content is what caused the Wiki and the FTP to happen in the first place. And yes, there have been many, many other disputes {several of them quite heated} over what is "proper" and what is not.

The funny thing is that virtually every dispute can be boiled down to one talking point - intellectual property. Either you RESPECT the concept, or you don't. I've been a freelance writer for 30 years, and a working musician for 42, so I have a fairly good practical knowledge of where the boundaries of IP lie. Even though Duke's contributions here haven't been monetized in any way, they still carry the IP clout of a movie, book, record, or anything else that can be copywritten or trademarked - as a court of law would see it.

But even more than that, Duke's contributions come from his mind, his heart, and his GENEROSITY. He doesn't HAVE to share content here unless he WANTS to. And as such, he is 100% entitled to be upset if his contributions aren't shown the respect they deserve. Keep in mind that above all else, Duke is also a tenured member of the Fembot Central community; he's not some outsider getting his kicks by trolling a fetish site. Ergo, Duke's contributions SHOULD command a certain amount of built-in respect, period.

And as for the AI-generation aspect, to me it's a simple case of complete and total intellectual bankruptcy. Show me an AI that can describe how an orange tastes - without saying "It tastes like an orange" - and I'll gladly change my viewpoint. Until then, AI usage remains in the realm of nitwits, mental midgets, and diseased lobotomy patients.

{Just for the record, what I said about Duke applies to every other content creator here, including myself.}

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https://ibb.co/GfCJVgxk

But it changes nothing. The debate and minds are closed on FC. The policy of no AI is fixed and the admins are absolute. Our collective language on the debate makes me tremendously sad.

Anyway, ASFRians now across the AI schism are already practicing their heresy away from this forum free of insult and damnation.
Anyone reading interested just ping me.

[andoroido]

There is PLENTY of stuff on this board I find from unattractive to downright repugnant - but I don't criticize the artist, the artwork, or the media used to create it. I just find the things that interest me

Truth.

We have been, until this year, accepting, or at least tolerant of all kinds of content here.
ASFR has some overlaps with other fetish communities. (That's what our "F" stands for!)
If someone is posting a lot of fembot foot fetish content, manipped form copywritten material, I don't demand it be banned. Foot stuff is not my bag, baby. Though I might sift through it looking for possible gold.

But suddenly, the tolerance for diversity is disappearing like this is some sort of reddit sub. >:[

Maybe for some people AI fembot content is a huge turn on! Do we deny this "F" because it's icky to some?

But, silliness aside (though the above is actually not that silly an issue if you think about it. "F" is a big tent. Or it should be...)

There are legit arguments against AI content being posted here.

1. People who spam AI slop.
2. AI is based on stealing original works of artists without attribution, let alone compensation.

My responses are simple.

1. Spam is spam. Ban spam. The "real" work of a proper AI artist (as opposed to an AI slop spammer) is making prompts, seeing the results. and then scrapping the 99% of junk that gets spit out, and keeping that rare 1% and sharing it. Someone spamming 500 AI images vs. someone posting 3 of the best AI images they came up with this month?

1a. At some point, we won't be able to tell the difference between AI and human-made content (except the AI stuff will be better and not obviously stolen copyright photos manipped in Photoshp or GIMP).. So...what is the policy on that? Does everyone posting content have to prove they made it themselvesh? Provide photo ID? A Youtube video of them drawing the material from scratch? Demand that all manips post the original stolen copyright photo for approval? That would be quite ironic.. see below.

2. This community has been stealing copywritten photos, videos and other works and doing "manips" for DECADES, and NOBODY CARED. The "But AI is stealing the work of human artists" is a legit issue...but stealing the work of artists was never really brought up here when it is manips. We're all guilty of ignoring it for decades. Manip artists even put their own names and watermarks on stolen photos. And we all enjoyed them... without a peep...

....

did that sink in?

A non-spamming AI artist is no different than all the manip artists who have stolen photos and vidcaps for decades and added their special touch and nobody objected. We didn't ban Photoshop manips and insist all manips be done from original work, did we?

I welcome constructive debate on these 2 points.

P.S. The ageist comments on this issue? Not a good look...

This is a community older than reddit. Don't make it reddit.

[andoroido]

deleting.
site slow on accepting edits of above.

[AmosBurton7]

There is PLENTY of stuff on this board I find from unattractive to downright repugnant - but I don't criticize the artist, the artwork, or the media used to create it. I just find the things that interest me

Truth.

We have been, until this year, accepting, or at least tolerant of all kinds of content here.
ASFR has some overlaps with other fetish communities. (That's what our "F" stands for!)
If someone is posting a lot of fembot foot fetish content, manipped form copywritten material, I don't demand it be banned. Foot stuff is not my bag, baby. Though I might sift through it looking for possible gold.

But suddenly, the tolerance for diversity is disappearing like this is some sort of reddit sub. >:[

Maybe for some people AI fembot content is a huge turn on! Do we deny this "F" because it's icky to some?

But, silliness aside (though the above is actually not that silly an issue if you think about it. "F" is a big tent. Or it should be...)

There are legit arguments against AI content being posted here.

1. People who spam AI slop.
2. AI is based on stealing original works of artists without attribution, let alone compensation.

My responses are simple.

1. Spam is spam. Ban spam. The "real" work of a proper AI artist (as opposed to an AI slop spammer) is making prompts, seeing the results. and then scrapping the 99% of junk that gets spit out, and keeping that rare 1% and sharing it. Someone spamming 500 AI images vs. someone posting 3 of the best AI images they came up with this month?

1a. At some point, we won't be able to tell the difference between AI and human-made content (except the AI stuff will be better and not obviously stolen copyright photos manipped in Photoshp or GIMP).. So...what is the policy on that? Does everyone posting content have to prove they made it themselvesh? Provide photo ID? A Youtube video of them drawing the material from scratch? Demand that all manips post the original stolen copyright photo for approval? That would be quite ironic.. see below.

2. This community has been stealing copywritten photos, videos and other works and doing "manips" for DECADES, and NOBODY CARED. The "But AI is stealing the work of human artists" is a legit issue...but stealing the work of artists was never really brought up here when it is manips. We're all guilty of ignoring it for decades. Manip artists even put their own names and watermarks on stolen photos. And we all enjoyed them... without a peep...

....

did that sink in?

A non-spamming AI artist is no different than all the manip artists who have stolen photos and vidcaps for decades and added their special touch and nobody objected. We didn't ban Photoshop manips and insist all manips be done from original work, did we?

I welcome constructive debate on these 2 points.

P.S. The ageist comments on this issue? Not a good look...

This is a community older than reddit. Don't make it reddit.

Its too late. Readd the comment a few before yours. This IS "Reddit" now. Gatekeeping, insults, tribalism, mockery, people claiming "Tenure", its all here.

Everything you stated is 100% correct, and are points I have made over the past months - taking other peoples watermarked photos and "manipulating" them with Photoshop is arguably WORSE than the dreaded video generator - "Oh NO! the AI generated a video of a blond haired woman WALKING! Who's WALK did it steal!! Who in real life might somewhat resemble the AI generated pretty lady! The horror!" - People vidcapping, screenshotting the copyrighted works of others, taking photos of real, living people and removing their faces, limbs, etc. is legitimately FAR WORSE and these have all been staples of the genre here for the entire 25 years I've been lurking and finally posting. And I'm sorry, not even allowing people to post links to other sites with well made videos, clips, or pictures is just... wrong. We have links to porn sites put up, but not to a long time posters site where he's making really cool, curated and realistic videos (Not me, but there are several others that have been here a while that are dabbling).

And to the fallback argument of the people THREATENED by people who know how to use AI tools to CREATE amazing content (See above again, or just scan the board), for some of the stuff I've seen people making now it would take a legitimate full fledged Movie Studio with very attractive, fit, beautiful women willing to happily do "fetish/SciFi" content on the payroll, high end digital cameras, sets, an SFX department, CGI, location shoots, and on and on. Unless you're Bezos, that simply isn't possible... its now possible to create Movie production level, realistic videos of WHATEVER you want, right from your computer, but people HERE don't WANT that? What the hell happened to this community?

This is almost like having Elon or Palantir or some other tech company announce next week that the thing we have fantasized and dreamed about since we were KIDS is now a reality, it costs less than 10K to buy one... but now its BAD, because we don't LIKE him, and anyone that buys one is somehow evil or morally bankrupt. LOL. So, we're stuck with the work of all of those glorious adobe photoshop Manips we've come to love so much, or 2D hand drawn pictures, or cartoons by the stunning and bold creative geniuses that are really true artists, as opposed to lifelike, cinematic quality works featuring FEMBOTS made by.... hmm, how was it put recently by a tolerant and gifted contributor here? Oh yes, the "nitwits, mental midgets, and diseased lobotomy patients".

[NatalieBayer]

Allow me to put this to rest.

We don't allow AI content here because it is a visual media, that was not created by a human. Yes, i admit, you likely had to get creative with your prompt to make it resemble what you wanted. But the difference is that you did not make the choice on any of the out comes. You may have wanted a blonde, but did you draw, find an image, or render the hair the way you wanted? No, a computer did that for you. When an artist draws something, they made it, all of it, every part of it. When i make a manip, i have to find the image, know how to use my tools to make it look how i want. Every part of it was made by a person.

I bring up the point of human involvement because we have actual legislation and laws about that. Parody and fair use laws that allow us to find and manip an image, legally, so long as its transformative.

Is this gate keeping? I'm sure some people will think so. Does it matter if its gate keeping? not really, the admin team here are fully in agreement that we don't want AI generated content here. We made that choice knowing full well that it was going to make a lot of people very upset. That's also okay with us. This is still a community of like minded people. If you find that you no longer fit in with the standards of the people that agree with the rules we have set in place, then you are welcome to not participate. To be honest, the upset over "why wont you allow us to post AI art" arguments sounds like someone going to a hentai only forum and then screaming about no one wanting real life photographs.

We simply do not want that content here. You are welcome to take it elsewhere. What you are not welcome to do is be insulting, inflammatory, or demeaning to the remaining community here. Yes, i know other people have said equally inflammatory things against you and your point of view. They've also been warned and talked to. At the end of the day, this community, like the landscape of the internet and technology as a whole has changed. You might not like those changes, but they are what they are. If that makes you feel like we are a mean group of Reddit mods, then you are allowed to have your opinion. But we respect our human made content creators here, and you wont be allowed to badmouth any of them. Let that be your last warning.

AI content isn't allowed here. Human made content is. The end.